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Wednesday, May 15, 2013

Isn't Jewish E3b a result of "admixture" with Greeks?

From: "Elise Friedman" <>
Subject: [DNA] Jewish E1b1b (was Re: R1b1c10 in the Baltics?)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 23:35:31 -0400
Responding to several people's comments about Jewish E1b1b (E3b):

Ellen Coffman wrote:
> Or are you just referring to Ashkenazi haplogroup E*
> (also known as E1b1b1* or M35*)?

Did you really mean this as it reads, Ellen?

For the record:

- E* is certainly not the same as E1b1b1*/M35*
- E1b1b1* is a subclade of haplogroup E
- Jews are in E*, E1b1b1*/M35* and all "major" subclades of E1b1b1.

Sasson Margoliot wrote:
> Isn't Jewish E3b a result of "admixture" with Greeks? Unlike later
> conversion to Judaism was possible in Greek and Roman civilization...
> What can be learned from haplotypes about such possibility ?

I run the Jewish E3b (now E1b1b) project at FTDNA, and cay say, without a
doubt, that members are in all "major" E1b1b subclades -- E1b1b1* (M35*),
E1b1b1a1 (V12), E1b1b1a2 (V13), E1b1b1a3 (V22), E1b1b1b2 (M81) and E1b1b1c1
(M34) -- as well as E* (no known subclade).

Each of these subclades have their own history and geographical origins, so
I don't see how the whole of Jewish E1b1b could possibly be attributed to
admixture with any single group of people.

Anatole Klyosov wrote:
> The data available (more than 300 Jewish haplotypes of various E
> show that the most ancient common ancestor of present-day E*-Jews lived
> 6,400+/-400 years BP. About two-thirds of all present E* Jews descended
> from him. Besides, there were three more, rather recent common ancestors,
> who lived 1,000+/-250, 975+/-100, and 750+/-200 years BP, and from whom
> one-quarter-to-more-than-one-third, one-sixth, and one-fifth,
> of all present-day Jews of E1b1b* haplogroup descended.

When you say E*, do you mean "everyone in haplogroup E" or do you mean only
those in the backbone group E who are not in any known subclades? Most on
this list would read E* to mean people who are not in any known E subclades,
so I just want to make sure we're all on the same page.

I haven't had time to run any TMRCA calculations for my project members yet,
so I'm at a disadvantage to discuss specific numbers right now, but can you
please explain who the "three rather recent common ancestors" are? Are
these MRCAs of specific subclades? If so, which ones?

If we consider subclades alone, there has to be at least 7 MRCAs -- one for
each of the subclades containing Jewish people (E*, E1b1b1*, E1b1b1a1,
E1b1b1a2, E3b1b1a3, E1b1b1b2, E1b1b1c1).

However, based on my experience with the Jewish E3b project, many of the
subclades have more than one cluster -- about 15 in total currently. While
some of the clusters are very similar and may actually represent different
descendant branches of the same relatively recent ancestor, there are other
clusters which are very distinct from each other and more than likely
represent MRCAs who were not related to each other in any reasonable

For example, there are currently two Jewish E1b1b1a1 (V12) clusters. They
each have their own MRCA, but the modal haplotype of each cluster is similar
enough to indicate that both clusters may actually descend from a single
Jewish V12 ancestor.

On the other hand, there are multiple Jewish E1b1b1c1 (M34) clusters, some
of which are very different from each other, therefore I believe these
clusters represent several different "founding" ancestors -- ie, there was
not a single Jewish M34 from which all other Jewish M34s descend.

In addition, while my project is relatively comprehensive, it's by no means
complete. There are many more Jewish E1b1b haplotypes out there, especially
among the Sephardic population, which is unfortunately not well represented
in my project yet. So IMO, there are probably many more Jewish M34
"founders" out there.

Allow me to repeat that I have not run any TMRCA calculations for the Jewish
E3b project yet and am not prepared to discuss any specific timeframes. All
of my statements are observations based on my daily work with clustering
E1b1b haplotypes in both the Jewish E3b project and the 900+ member
all-inclusive E-M35 project (formerly E3b project). Someday, I will get
around to doing some calculations, but for now, my observations and
familiarity with E1b1b haplotypes and clusters are what I have to offer.


Elise Friedman
Jewish E1b1b (E3b) Project

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